I was therefore overjoyed when my friend linked me to a message board discussion about Final Fantasy XIV's localisation. Though it concerned just a tiny aspect of the game's localisation, it was debated with deep care and consideration! 'There are other people in the world like me,' I thought. I found it incredibly enjoyable to read through the nine pages of discussion about this one localisation aspect. That's why, for this post, I want to share with you some of the highlights of this heated discussion.
To start with, this issue concerns a character called Midgardsomr, and its Dragonspeak dialect. My friend found the initial seed of this discussion on the Final Fantasy XIV reddit:
Anyone else noticed the rather huge difference between the things Midgardsomr says in the japanese version and in the english version? For those who don't speak japanese, there is pretty much 3 times as much text than in the english version. Also, he mentions a number of rather important things that are at most barely hinted at in the english version.That's a lot of omitted information! So much so that it begets the idea that this was intentional move by the translation team. But why!? The answer to this question lies in a post on the official Final Fantasy XIV message boards by none other than Michael-Christopher Koji Fox, the head of the game's localisation team!!!!! So often in my localisation analysis posts I murmur about wishing to hear the thoughts or reasoning of the translator behind the text. While this is usually nothing more than a pipe dream, Final Fantasy XIV has two aspects that buck this trend. For one thing, it is a current-day game, which counts for a lot in this age of online user discussions. Final Fantasy VIII however, released over fifteen years ago, is hardly the talk of the town. Second, it is an MMORPG, which innately encourages a community and deep player investment in the lore. This is engagement is undoubtedly key to subscribers being continually willing to pay their monthly subscription fees, so it falls on the developer to engage with their fan base. So without further adieu, here is Fox's lengthy post that addresses the reason behind the brevity of Midgardsomr's words.
So yeah, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that changes quite a few things, right? I haven't continued the story yet, but it seemed weird that there would be such a difference.
- The people of Ishgard commited some kind of sin in the past, and are now about to commit another one. That's why the dragons will go to war. I believe he also makes a reference to the Ascians controlling them, but I couldn't quite catch it.
- The whole Crystal scene takes a quite different air on. While in the english he basically removed the Blessing of Light (which we got in addtion to the Echo), he seals it in the japanese and mentions that even if he didn't do it, the "Shadow" would've done it eventually. Also, the whole thing is supposed to be a test.
- Speaking of test, the little minion we get? That's Midgardsomr watching us, to see if we will follow the same way as other humans, and commit sins without care. Though you could've probably figured that out yourself.
- He does mention that the war cannot be stopped, but that we may be able to influence it and at the very least make sure it doesn't get that much worse.
- It seems he tests us because he thinks that that is Hydalins intention and he agrees with that. He seems to be on good footing with her.
Soon after the release of 2.5 there were some players who noticed differences in the length of dragon lines between the EN and JP versions, so I wanted to use this opportunity to talk a little about Eorzea’s dragons, their language, and how the ancient race has been characterized by the EN Localization team.It's clear that Fox put a lot of thought into the localisation of the dragon lines. Sometimes on this blog I wonder about whether I am putting a game's text under an overly intense microscope, but the way Fox, a senior translator within the games industry, puts so much thought into such seemingly small details gives me a great detail of heart that is the way localisers should be. The specifics of his post does open a big can of worms, and normally I would weigh in with my own thoughts, but today I am instead handing the mic to the game's avid community. Quote boxes with a red background signify those who opposed Fox's localisation decision, while those in blue signify those who supported him.
As I mentioned in the past, far back before even the original release of 1.0, I was tasked with creating an original language for the dragons of Dravania. The background information I received at that time was that the dragons had lived for several millennia and were highly intelligent, so I set about putting together set of rules that would fit naturally those criteria.
Firstly, I felt that the language would be fairly economical. Thousands of years of refining would render long words short, would eliminate most of the more complex consonants and compound vowels, and would see the complete disappearance of words with little meaning, or meanings that could be represented by similar terms (goodbye thesauruses!).
Secondly, as these dragons had lived together for so long and only spoke this language amongst one another, they would have the uncanny ability to anticipate what a speaker was going to say based not only on context, but on a kind of linguistic premonition. Think of it as how after fifty years of marriage, a wife can complete her husband’s sentences for him. The five-decade stockpile of conversations to draw upon has given her a sixth sense, if you will. Now multiply this sense by fifty or a hundred or even more, and you have the dragons. This ability to understand what is going to be said before it is even said, I believed, would affect their language in a way that saw single words taking on multiple meanings. For example, a word like ‘flesh’ could end up being used for ‘blood,’ ‘body,’ ‘corporeal,’ ‘concrete,’ or ‘intercourse’ (the border between nouns, adjectives, verbs, etc being blurred by ages of use). The dragons would know which word was intended based on context, position within a sentence, minute variations in inflection or vowel length, as well as the aforementioned knowledge of past conversations with the speaker.
So, it is safe to say that while a non-dragon may endeavor to study the dragon language, it would be nearly impossible in their short (compared to a dragon) lifespan to even begin to fully grasp the intricacies of it. And, because of this, the only way a non-dragon would be able to understand a dragon is if the dragon chose to speak in the non-dragon’s language, or the non-dragon was blessed with the power of the Echo.
When the Echo “translates” for someone, it is a joint effort between the listener’s mind and Hydaelyn’s gift. The gift is providing the knowledge, while the listener’s mind is using its previously compiled linguistic background to compile the data into something more familiar.
On the other hand, when a dragon speaks in a non-dragon language, it is the dragon himself who is doing the translation, and therefore it is only natural to assume that the resulting target language (in our case Eorzean/English) may somewhat resemble the structure of the dragon’s native tongue—short and concise, but chock-full of meaty ambiguous content.
The dragon’s knowledge of the target language also comes into play here. A being that has lived several ages in Eorzea will most likely have picked up its Eorzean long ago. Couple that with the fact that the being may not have had much in the way of communication with Eorzeans since then, making it difficult for him to pick up on more modern speech patterns. We felt that to reflect this (and the fact that they are simply very, very old beings), it would be better to give the dragons a slightly more archaic speech pattern, hence the ‘thee’s and ‘thou’s.
So finally we get to 2.5. In this patch are scenes in which a certain dragon speaks directly with the player. Here, the dragon has chosen to use the tongue of the player rather than his own language. When the EN Localization team received the relatively wordy Japanese lines for this scene, we felt that it would fit the character and his native language better if we localized it in a manner that seemed a natural fit with the dragon language I had created—that being something that was far more compact, but still contained the main core that was in the Japanese. And thus emerged the difference in the length of lines—EN being somewhat shorter than the JP. So fear not, for the content (while slightly jumbled up to accommodate the differences in grammatical flow between Japanese and English) is, for the most part, similar between versions, and Japanese users are not somehow privy to secrets lost to the winds of translation.
Karen_Cerfrumos
While I definitely appreciate the thought that went into characterizing the race of dragons, I can't help but feel that at the end of the day, there's a palpable discrepancy in how the Japanese writing team decided to represent the character of Midgardsormr and how he's written in English, to the point where impression of him as a character I got from looking up the Japanese dialogue is at a stark contrast with the impression English players on this very forum got from him.
Gilthas
Ah yes. The Japanese should be translated and not localized camp. I disagree completely with this. It's why a good translator usually also needs to be a good writer. It's also a pretty reductive way to look at the English localization team. Like they're just simple translation bots and not an actual part of the development team.
Efyre
I'm one of those people who always want their games/anime to include the original Japanese VOs as well. Going just by the voice acting, FFXIV is no different - the way Japanese voice actors deliver their lines simply can't be matched. So for patch 2.5 I switched back to Japanese because... why wouldn't I switch to the original VOs in the first place?!
Well, after watching the new cutscenes I remembered why I had it set to English: The writing is just SO much better. I don't even speak Japanese and only understand a handful of words, I shouldn't be able to judge the quality of the Japanese writing. Yet even with my basic knowledge it feels like I could easily translate half of the Japanese dialogue because they keep using the same clichéd phrases over and over and over. It's like they have a holy codex with thousands of story stereotypes written down.
It may be just a cultural thing of course. Maybe they like repetition and familiarity and their understanding of good writing is completely opposite to mine. Either way I'm sure the Japanese team is doing a great job for their target audience, but the English version just seems much more sophisticated and interesting to me. In fact it's one of the main reasons why I'm still playing this game and the main reason why I'm posting. So once again thanks Ferne and of course everyone else in the English localization team! You're still doing an awesome job!
Karen_Cerfrumos to Gilthas
Please stop putting words into my mouth. You're valiantly fighting what is obviously incorrect but also none of what I've said.
Localization is an extralinguistic process that involves adaptation for a different culture. Like, let's use an extreme example, a swastika in Japan would be taken as a buddhist symbol while in Western culture, you'd have to remove that from a game because people will absolutely take you the wrong way. This is localization. Replacing a jokeful reference to a Japanese comic with a jokeful reference to an English comic where appropriate is localization, done to retain the effect in a different cultural setting.
Localization however is not a carte blanche do just do whatever as every decision must serve some purpose or be questioned.
And "translation bots", that's rich. Translation, even something as trivial as 1:1 (which does not imply translating words by the way) is a very mind-tasking process. So again, please stop putting words into my mouth.
I'll admit, I'm not a big fan of fauxpeare writing and certain other alternations (like removal of callouts of Megaflare in Gilgamesh trial and Diamond Dust in Shiva trial, perhaps also considered inappropriate for high fantasy feel?).
See, fair enough, the translation is done in-house and close to people who come up with original lore. That's great. But the fact remains that the original writers did not consider this setting while writing Midgardsormr's dialogue.
Tiggy
This is all an poor excuse not to give us a proper translation. We are not a dragon. We are players. We don't have the familiarity. We need explanations or we don't clearly understand what's going on. It's unjustified by the sole fact we must go to the fan Japanese translations just to clearly understand what was happening. We should not have a different experience than Japanese players. Our version of the story should not be more ambiguous than theirs.
BreathlessTao
With respect, this is just unprofessional. The fact that one of the English translators happens to be the one responsible for an imaginary language involved in here should be disregarded and not at all relevant, it should not come into the picture when doing the translation at all. Why? Because this is not usually the case. The translator is usually given a bunch of text that they need to translate, to the best of their abilities, making it sound and feel natural (in context) in the target language, but without altering any of the literary features of the original work. That is all. I understand that your background knowledge gave you an advantage, but if you felt that your own ideas were not in sync with how the writers implemented them in the first place... you should have brought it up to the writers themselves and found some kind of common ground with them. The actual raw translation of the Japanese text and the localised in-game English version are kind of worlds apart, and frankly, it's noticeable if someone listens to the Japanese audio and reads the English text, even without actually being able to speak/understand Japanese. Also, you specifically mention the EN team, so are we also to understand that such a discrepancy doesn't even exist between the Japanese and the other localised versions? Because if that's the case, it's just even less right, in my opinion. Obviously, we don't know what kind of communication went on about all this, before it was greenlit. But at the end of the day, the point is, it was, and it doesn't feel like a wise choice.
So, again, thank you for the lore, but please... next time, don't have the literary parts changed so much.
Intaki
With respect, I think you don't know what you're actually talking about and are trying to impose your belief on how things should be run over how they actually are, and then holding the EN team to your revised standard.
And we already know that the EN localization team is in direct contact with the JP team as well as the head of all the lore. We also know that there is no actual "original Japanese script"; we've been told before that the creation of the writing is a collaborative process, and teams from each sector can and do take each other's ideas an incorporate them into their own work.
Thandronen
To anyone who feels that "the translation is fine as is", you're missing the point. I (and many others I assure you) want as close to the exact translation that the original content writer intended as possible. Those of us in this camp do not want some cooked up "dragonspeak" version of what some EN translator though would sound cooler or more dragon-like. This was clearly a case of someone (Fernewhales) attempting to be cute and doing more than what was called for and I'm sure that he will likely be reprimanded for it and told to refrain from this type of behavior in the future. There was simply too much material left out in his translation here or left to speculation and it is completely unacceptable.
Efyre
I (and many others I assure you) prefer good writing even if it means straying from the source a little. Not everyone's a weeaboo who needs all stories to be presented in the same bland and boring manner.
Thandronen
Good writing does not drop info. Good writing gives all the information in a pleasing manner.
This:
ほう、汝も「超える力」を持つか・・・。幻体ごときでは、敵わぬのも道理よ。
So you too possess the Echo. That is why the phantom form cannot win over you.
然らば、我と引き合わせたのも、ハイデリンの意志か。 問おう・・・汝は何故、ここへ参った？
In that case, it is Hydaelyn's will that we shall converse. Tell me, why are you here?
dropped to this:
By Her gifts has thou earned a moment's reprieve.
Speak, mortal, and I shall listen.
is fine.
But, this:
確かに、北天の星を燃やすは、我が一族の猛き咆哮。進軍を告げる、鬨の声だ。
This is true, the star in the northern skies burns with the valorous roar of my kin. This is the battlecry, calling to advance.
一族が向かうは、イシュガルド・・・。畏れを忘れ、罪を犯したヒトの棲処。
Their destination is Ishgard, home of the people who have forgotten fear and have sinned.
[PC looks agitated]
これは報復よ。イシュガルドの民は、己が罪から目を背けた。その罪こそが、尽きることない戦の火種。
This is retribution! The people of Ishgard are blind to their sins. Their sins demand battle without end.
そればかりか、あの者どもは今、再び罪を犯そうとしておる。故に、我が一族は咆哮をとどろかせたのであろう。
And yet more, they want to sin again. This is why my kin roars.
turned into this:
Guided by a star...? Heh heh heh.
My people have heard the song. Ishgard shall burn.
[PC looks agitated]
Sons must answer for their fathers' misdeeds.
We do not forget. We do not forgive.
Just to include several pop culture references is not. The fact that the Ishigardians are preparing to "Sin again" being the reason for the new surge is an important point. The current translation makes it seem that the Dragons are just being vindictive.
I could go through it all and point out other parts where important bits of info and full sentences were misconstrued or left out, but I would rather not.
Miitan
Maybe I just like wordy exposition, but it seems that the translator has an idea of how he wants the dragons to sound and is going to run with it regardless of whether pertinant information is lost in the process which I find rather arrogant.
Seif
While I do appreciate and respect the work gone into this I am worried based on the examples that we EN players are missing out on detail.
If the examples thus far are accurately translated then what's more worriesome is that it seems the character and the mood of the delivery has changed quite drastically in the process.
Having said this crotique I do commend the translation team for listening to players and dropping the old english that was in 1.0 in favor of clarity.
This situation seems a bit similar in the way it seems the translators need for creative freedom has stepped on the clarity of the message itself. Keep up the good work guys.
axemtitanium
It was an authorial decision to make Midgardsormr's relationship with the player more ambiguous in the English version, perhaps to set up a more dramatic reveal later. The EN team is no less a part of the lore/story team than any other language, including Japanese. The story in this game is a collaborative effort and the EN team decided to characterize EN Midgardsormr in this way, making him more mysterious, terse, and ambiguously adversarial than his JP characterization. You are free to dislike that authorial choice, but it's no less "correct" than the Japanese version because all people involved are full-fledged "authors" of the work.
The Japanese script is not the "original" script which was translated into English. Japanese and English language speakers are all authors who collaborated to create the original script in two languages. There is no "translation team", there is an English language team which worked on the English version of the script. No translation ever happened and therefore there is nothing lost in translation.
A very interesting discussion, don't you think? The above is just a selection of the most interesting posts from a thread that spanned nine pages. The last post, which was also the last post in the thread, implies that the localisation of Final Fantasy XIV works in a more parallel fashion than the traditional process of the Japanese script then leading to the English. Although the dynamic nature of MMORPGs lends credence to this idea, I'm not convinced that the game's script is a collaborative effort. After all, the game's script is dependant on the events, environments and other development aspects, which the Japanese team in Tokyo handles. Sure, to a certain extent the localisers can edit the air of the characters, but I think it is likely an exaggeration to place them on the same level as the Japanese writers, who I believe dictate the overall scenarios.
Nonetheless, although the message board thread in question contained a great deal of negativity towards Fox's post, I err on the side of supporting his decision. I also argue that so would most of the playerbase. The discussion reminded me of a previous post on this site, where I discussed some remarks from the esteemed translator, Robin Buss. Here is a snippet:
A great deal of nonsense is written about translation, particularly by academics who approach it either as a terrain for theoretical debate or, worse still, as a moral issue: ‘the translator must always be faithful to his original... he has no right whatever to take liberties with it… Nor has he any right to try to smooth the reader’s path by the omission of “dull” bits, short-circuitings, explanatory additions, radical transferences or changes of order.’ Why? And who says? Is it the reader who is demanding this perfection, this absence of explanatory additions, and so on?Although MMORPGs do draw a more passionate player base than other games, I would still argue that the majority are not fluent Japanese speakers, and, most importantly, want to enjoy an interesting and well-written narrative. We, as consumers of foreign-language media, often rely on professional translators. I bet many people (myself included) have enjoyed foreign films (e.g. Oldboy) or books (e.g. The Count Of Monte Cristo) thanks to somebody's translation work and think nothing of it. Nonetheless, I am without doubt that, as with any translation, certain elements or nuances would have lost in the process of creating an English version. However, if these works were enjoyable to consume, then I can only commend the translator. Of course, for those few pieces of media that we find particularly enjoyable, it is natural to want to take a deeper dive into the work and root up any extra information, such as its critical reception, or the piece's inspiration, or details about the work's creator. When it comes to foreign media, part of this research inevitably involves checking the translation to see if there were any omitted nuggets of information. Indeed, this is the exact service I am providing on this website when I analyse the localisation of Japanese games (such as Final Fantasy VIII and Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney). However, I am well aware that most people who play these games would not be interested in such posts. It is enough for them to enjoy the piece of media and that be that, like how I enjoyed Oldboy. In this way, I support Fox's localisation direction, because although it may have omitted parts of the Japanese, it was translated with the intention to deliver a more immersive experience. Moreover, if you never looked up the Japanese script, you wouldn't even ever know the difference!
What do you think?
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